# Super Mario Bros Wonder doesn't quite capture the essence of 2D Mario **URL:** \ **Category:** Video Games\ **Created:** [October 29, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887 "2023-10-29T22:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![harborline\_765](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/harborline_765/32/5947_2.png) [@harborline\_765](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/harborline_765)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/1 "2023-10-29T22:39:37Z")
I had fun playing Super Mario Bros. Wonder, but by the end of the game I felt very unsatisfied, despite enjoying the first couple of worlds immensely. Having thought long about why this is while also playing New Super Mario Bros. Wii, I think I can articulate why this is the case: **The skill ceiling is much lower in Super Mario Bros. Wonder** Wonder does have some difficult stages, but the overall level of challenge, from clearing stages to finding large purple coins, remains quite constant throughout. Older 2D Mario games slowly increase in overall difficulty while always ensuring star coins provide a challenge from the beginning. **Super Mario Bros. Wonder gives the player less agency** I was shocked by how rare the starman powerup is, and how few opportunities players have to chain-stomp off enemies to earn extra lives. Players are discouraged from using/bringing items into different stages, the developers routinely spell out the optimal jumping arc with coins, and many secrets aren’t secrets at all, but rather strategically placed so the majority of players will find them. This didn’t make the game feel like much of an adventure, despite the thematic variety between stages. **The scope in Super Mario Bros. Wonder feels undeveloped** Two worlds lack boss fights. There’s only one boss in the entire game, sans-final battle. Two of the special world entrances are accessed by talking to an NPC. The special world is significantly less challenging than NSMB Wii. **The novel Wonder Seed segments are rather one-note** Returning to Wonder this weekend and I found myself actively _avoiding_ the Wonder Seed segments in stages where I was grabbing missed giant purple coins. While novel, they aren’t much fun to replay, because they railroad the player into following a specific path to the goal. Because they often take up half a stage, levels often lack the breathing room to develop its ideas. **Giant purple coins lack the tension of the star coins** Compared with NSMB Wii, the giant purple coins in Mario Bros Wonder are significantly easier to find and earn, making them feel more like redundant collectibles rather than challenges for skilled players to overcome. They also lack tension. Older games would require players to collect coins AND complete the stage. In Wonder, you can collect a coin, die, and it’ll count as having collected it, removing the legitimacy behind the more challenging ones. **Super Mario Bros Wonder suffers from cruise control** From the simplified physics to the reduced player agency, Super Mario Bros. Wonder reminded me a lot of Rayman Legends, another platformer that, while fun and novel, was ultimately rather shallow to play through. The movement physics feel great but lack momentum. Elements that might have frustrated players in previous games, from the puzzling ghost houses to timed block challenges to the difficult precision-demanding fortresses, have been removed almost entirely in favour of more exploratory gameplay. The world map is a glorified level selection screen rather than a game within a game now. * * * I’m glad Nintendo decided to take 2D Mario in a new direction given the previous games will continue to exist, but I’m not sure this is the direction it needs. For me 2D Mario is about making the most of those malleable platforming physics, offering a plethora of secrets for skilled players to uncover, while also providing a miriad of ways to play and replay through the game, be it through secret exits, ways to earn loads of 1UPs, and so on. I was shocked by how difficult and demanding New Super Mario Bros Wii was when I played it this weekend. It’s almost as if Nintendo had more confidence in its players while offering the super guide and hint videos as a fallback if a level could not be completed. I’m also surprised there’s a bit of historical revisionism going on in the developer interviews. Considering NSMB Wii’s 30+ million sales, the general consensus last generation was that 2D Mario was more approachable, and Nintendo began to include 2D Mario elements in the 3D titles. With Mario Bros Wonder, the developers seem to have concluded the opposite, which strikes me as odd. But even considering that, I feel the game comes off poorly compared to something like Super Mario 3D World, which had a monster post-game, so difficult that I never completed it. So while I had fun with Mario Bros Wonder I feel it’s one of the weakest 2D Mario titles despite the fantastic presentation and thematic creativity. I hope the points above help articulate why I was left so unsatisfied with it despite initially having a blast. I’m also curious to see what the long-term reception of this game will be after the honeymoon period is over. ---
**Author:** ![Peltz](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/peltz/32/6142_2.png) [@Peltz](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Peltz)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/2 "2023-10-30T01:12:03Z")
I think they could’ve leaned harder into secrets and exploration. And the wonder segments are too linear. But I really enjoy how silly and shocking the level design is. There’s more variety here than in the NSMB games. And the animations and graphics do a lot of the heavy lifting to add to the charm here. All of it feels like playing a well animated cartoon. And the online elements help streamline frustration to feel more modern than other games in the series. Overall, I’m having fun with it. Not sure where I’d rank it, but I definitely like it more than nsmb games. Even though it’s not hard, I’m having a ball jumping in for a level or two every now and then for some quick enjoyment. ---
**Author:** ![harborline\_765](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/harborline_765/32/5947_2.png) [@harborline\_765](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/harborline_765)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/3 "2023-11-04T16:44:17Z")
Agreed that the level design is quite silly and shocking and certainly not like anything we’ve seen from 2D Mario thematically! But it also never really develops the concepts it presents, either they are quite shallow (stealth sections as Goomba, top-down mazes) or they aren’t fun to replay because of how they railroad you. Fun to play for the first time, though, but kind of boring to return to. This might be best highlighted by the castle levels in Wonder, which seem designed to reduce player frustration to the extent that they are almost entirely forgettable. Almost like they were designed as other levels but with a castle themed slapped on top. I played through New Super Mario Bros Wii last weekend, and Luigi U this weekend, and I was actually shocked by how much variety there is to the level design, in that the designers often create new challenges with very little. There might be a strong wind in a stage, or there might be ice surrounded by a bunch of fire breathing piranha plants. The castle stages can be downright malicious at times, as if the developers are playing with you. Which makes them really memorable. It felt a lot fresher than I expected, making me wonder if NSMB 2 and NSMB U are to blame for the series’ poor reputation as they both innovated the least while recycling the most. Came away quite impressed with Luigi U…the time pressure is handled well (levels aren’t just sprint right to the finish), the star coins are almost all platforming challenges, levels are constantly fresh, you can tell the developers had fun creating some challenging stages. ---
**Author:** ![Minasu](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/minasu/32/21041_2.png) [@Minasu](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Minasu)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/4 "2024-08-21T13:17:47Z")
> [@harborline\_765](#): > > Came away quite impressed with Luigi U…the time pressure is handled well (levels aren’t just sprint right to the finish), the star coins are almost all platforming challenges, levels are constantly fresh, you can tell the developers had fun creating some challenging stages. Spot on. Luigi U is elite. I just ran through it for the first time and it’s pure platforming at its finest. For what it’s worth, I’d rank it alongside 64 and 3D Land as the best in the series, outside the original trilogy (JP). I’m sure I’ll play Wonder one day, but it may be a while… I’m not the best at staying up-to-date XD ![Luigi U](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/uploads/retrogameboards/original/3X/4/d/4d5ec7459dcf6ab552998f72d608e0c9caf93ed6.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![harborline\_765](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/harborline_765/32/5947_2.png) [@harborline\_765](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/harborline_765)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2024, 2:47pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/5 "2024-08-21T14:47:50Z")
If you ever do try Wonder, I’d be curious of your thoughts! Re-reading my opening post and I’m surprised I mentioned that Wonder has “more exploratory gameplay”. The levels feel quite restrictive in terms of overall space, I think what I meant was the ratio of aimless wondering is higher in Wonder. A lot of the challenges in the game are isolated to short challenge stages, rather than being naturally part of the level design itself. ---
**Author:** ![Minasu](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/minasu/32/21041_2.png) [@Minasu](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Minasu)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2026, 9:32am UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/6 "2026-09-20T09:32:06Z")
> [@harborline\_765](#): > > If you ever do try Wonder, I’d be curious of your thoughts! I got round to Wonder. Having reread your posts, it seems there’s not much to add, except to say I agree. A well-crafted game, as expected, but it’s designed for a modern mind… lots of flash and instant gratification. Nothing wrong with that, just not for me. On a related note, I played 3D World earlier in the year. It was my only other series blind spot… I mention this because it does a good job catering to old-school players and newcomers alike. The last level is so fun and feels like a thank you to longtime fans. The rest of the game, great though it is, falls short of 3D Land. They didn’t need to build the levels with multiplayer in mind when NSMB exists. Include the option, sure. But there’s too much margin for error, too often. Even so, 3D World is one of the better Super Mario games, and the last level may be the best in the series. ---
**Author:** ![spatsac](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/spatsac/32/27976_2.png) [@spatsac](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/spatsac)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2026, 5:07pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/7 "2026-09-20T17:07:49Z")
I find the original post’s criticism quite insightful since it is well elaborated. I agree with all ponts. Still, I was satisfied with Wonder at the end, if I remember correctly. The game delivered with the animation and level variety that newcomers to the series need. I think different people judge games differently and it is fair to judge them by level design and how controls feel since these are games and not movies/cartoons. However, the art of animation, graphical design, music and sound design are also a big part of what makes video games good. I personally don’t mind an easy game if I enjoy the animations (as opposed to mainstream reviewera often putting a lot of weight on difficulty level and pricing). So perhaps Wonder doesn’t represent peak gaming but I feel that’s completely fine. It’s a not a long game and one can be quickly done with it. It’s then an interesting question of which game should a newcomer play after Wonder. I was surprised that I enjoyed 3D World a lot. I would recommend it as well. I completed the Luigi levels in NSMB U Deluxe (Switch) and the game kept my attention until the end. On the other hand, I still haven’t completed the Mario part of NSMB U Deluxe. Otherwise, I like SMB 3 a lot. (here’s still a few in the 2D/2.5D Mario series that I haven’t played, so my opinion is partial) ---
**Author:** ![harborline\_765](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/harborline_765/32/5947_2.png) [@harborline\_765](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/harborline_765)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2026, 6:53pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/8 "2026-09-24T18:53:21Z")
Thanks for reading! You’re right that Wonder absolutely nails the “feel” of the game and how that interacts with the animation of the player character, the environment etc.. Like with Rayman Legends, where the platforming isn’t deep or demanding, it must play a huge role in why people just enjoyed playing it and are happy to overlook the fact that substantive core elements of the game are missing or lacking. I guess it also points to how hard developers had to work in the past to make compelling games to compensate for less compelling visuals. While I don’t enjoy the appearance of a game like New Super Mario Bros Wii, I can at least appreciate that its rather ugly visuals forced the designers to over-achieve elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Peltz](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/peltz/32/6142_2.png) [@Peltz](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Peltz)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2026, 6:03pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/9 "2026-09-30T18:03:38Z")
I think that older NES Mario games (excluding lost levels) only seemed hard at the time because platforming was still something new for everyone. Super Mario Bros 3 for me back then was impossible to beat. But today? Super Mario Bros 3 is incredibly easy. Every level is extremely short too, barring a few mazes in some castles. I think people may be surprised if they were to go back for a playthrough of it. I don’t know how its difficulty compares to Wonder, but I imagine they are more comparable than one would assume based on memory from decades past vs the reality. ---
**Author:** ![akumagorath](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/akumagorath/32/19360_2.png) [@akumagorath](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/akumagorath)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2026, 2:23am UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/10 "2026-10-01T02:23:27Z")
I think the issue is there was no saving back then. So you had to use tricks like getting the whistle or warping to finish in 1 sitting. It kind of got exacerbated if you were just warping every time, the difficulty spike was greater than if you just did each world in sequence, so it probably felt harder than it should have ---
**Author:** ![Minasu](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/minasu/32/21041_2.png) [@Minasu](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Minasu)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2026, 6:42am UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/11 "2026-10-01T06:42:01Z")
I’m not one to talk about difficulty in video games, or anything really. That’s because it mainly comes down to hours. If you do something over and over, it becomes ‘easier’ to you. But this is meaningless. Let a non-gamer play SMB3 and Wonder… See what they find easier. At its heart, this thread isn’t about difficulty anyway – it’s about design. ---
**Author:** ![androgyne](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/androgyne/32/633_2.png) [@androgyne](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/androgyne)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2026, 1:09pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/12 "2026-10-01T13:09:00Z")
> [@Peltz](#): > > But today? Super Mario Bros 3 is incredibly easy. Every level is extremely short too, barring a few mazes in some castles. I think people may be surprised if they were to go back for a playthrough of it. I don’t know how its difficulty compares to Wonder, but I imagine they are more comparable than one would assume based on memory from decades past vs the reality. If you play the Mario series in order, it’s very interesting to see the progression of stage length, the introduction of (visible) halfway markers (and then multiple markers) and such. By the time you get to NSMBU, the stages are so long by comparison! Even in the first world, there’s times where if you’re not focused on getting to the end, the time limit will get you. Personally, that was one of the reasons i preferred Luigi U, the shorter stage length. Other games like DKCR/TF, Rayman Origins, i also felt their levels were long to the point of exhaustion. I only felt like playing a few before switching off! It really makes me wonder what the “ideal length” for a level is (and it’s probably different per game direction and player too). The longer stages change the perception of the level design and overall game. What if the NSMBU stages were split up by their checkpoints into multiple stages instead? You usually start anew after a checkpoint anyway (item box normally right afterwards), and often times the individual stage sections are pretty self contained challenge wise. Long stage or more small stages are functionally identical but they’d make you feel different about the game. ---
**Author:** ![Minasu](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/minasu/32/21041_2.png) [@Minasu](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Minasu)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2026, 2:12pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/13 "2026-10-01T14:12:06Z")
The timer! An integral element of these games, but it’s absent in Wonder, which suffers from a lack of urgency as a result. I know many see a timer as a relic of a bygone age, but speedrunning is just as important today. You can still play for speed and use an external clock, but it’s not the same. I also know I’m no longer the target audience! ---
**Author:** ![akumagorath](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/akumagorath/32/19360_2.png) [@akumagorath](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/akumagorath)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2026, 2:50pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/14 "2026-10-01T14:50:41Z")
Another thing Luigi U nailed ---
**Author:** ![Minasu](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/minasu/32/21041_2.png) [@Minasu](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/Minasu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2026, 8:00am UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/15 "2026-10-02T08:00:41Z")
Absolutely. When I completed it, I said to myself, ‘I’ll do that again one day.’ For me, this is the sign of a great game. ---
**Author:** ![harborline\_765](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/www.retrogameboards.com/harborline_765/32/5947_2.png) [@harborline\_765](https://www.retrogameboards.com/u/harborline_765)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2026, 9:19pm UTC](https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/super-mario-bros-wonder-doesnt-quite-capture-the-essence-of-2d-mario/2887/16 "2026-10-13T21:19:38Z")
I found Super Mario Bros 3 pretty difficult when I played it a month after beating Wonder (and then NSMB Wii). It was the Famicom version though, where you return to small Mario whenevre you’re hit, so not sure if that made a substantial difference. But as akumagorath points out, no saving makes a big difference and adds weights to your actions, in terms of the path you take through each world, the worlds you travel between, the items you use (if you use a cloud to skip a level and then get a game over, it’s gone for good), and so on. The stakes feel that much higher when you have to clear a whole world from the start after every continue.